Some questions about being prepared for bears

[Korey]

I've been watching the conversation since the posting of that bear charge video from the side lines, but feel like there's a few points I'd like to chime in on

On February 22, 2016 at 6:17 AM, toejam said:

That was a bluff charge. If the bear was intent on attacking, neither the revolver nor bear spray would have made a difference. Fortunately, there are no grizzlies in the Smokey Mtns.

I personally disagree that that was a bluff charge, based on the body language of the bear. It is a little hard to tell from the video, so I could be wrong, but to me it looks like that bear is charging with ears laid back and head down. Bluff charges are usually ears standing up and head up to look bigger. Also there was no (as far as we can tell from the video) warning signs such as huffing, chomping or stamping the ground which usually precipitate a bluff charge. The presence of the cubs also makes me doubt that it was a bluff. Bears will veer off a real charge if given enough reason. They aren't indestructible bulldozers. An injury to a bear - especially a mother with cubs- can have serious consequences. They will defend themselves and their young, but will also run to live another day. I'm curious to know what would have happened if he had actually hit the bear, which might have enraged it further and actually caused it to follow through on its charge.

On February 23, 2016 at 11:26 PM, Aconcagua said:

A solid head shot with something along the lines of a 10mm, .41 magnum or .44 magnum would drop a bear -- even a grizzly dead in its tracks.  Actually it would make another 18" or so of forward movement.

Disrupting the animal's central nervous system -- turning off its brain will stop it immediately.

That's not an easy shot given the adrenaline level and the moving target, but it's certainly not impossible.  Not even close.

I'm going to have to agree that pulling off a shot like that is extremely unlikely. Sure it's not impossible, but to rely on it is foolhardy at best, and I have several experiences of my own and others that tell me so. I have a friend who trained to be a police officer (a slightly different situation but still relevant I think), and when he was in training he was told the reason most departments use 9mm is because you can carry a lot more ammunition, because in most shootouts, there is a lot of shooting and very little hitting. Entire magazines have been discharged at distances less than 10' and no one was injured. In situations like these, adrenaline and panic are not your friends. Even as someone who has grown up his whole life around firearms, I will always choose bear spray for several reason: First of all, statistics say it's more effective. Second, I don't have any desire to kill an animal, and bear spray lets both myself and the bear walk away.

[lonerock]

I agree with you Korey. I've known two guides. The one in Alaska was a fishing guide and his job was to take a boat down river to get supplies for his group at camp. He said it got to the point after a couple of trips where the grizzlies were waiting for him and the food along the river. He went through 5 cans of bear spray in one summer. The bears came after him but he said the spray stopped them well before they reached his boat. Similar to other guides I knew when I worked as a wildlife biologist. I too will avoid killing  an animal if there is a safe alternative. In all my years as a biologist I never carried a gun and I'm still alive after 3 cougar encounters and dozens of bears. There may be a rare situation where killing a bear is necessary but it should not be the first option. Avoid would be first then bear spray. 

[Rocket]

Let me first say that I really love all animals and nature. Except snakes.

Also just wanted to point out in the video the bang from the gun was enough to change the bears mind proving you don't necessarily have to kill it to resolve the situation. Is a good method of prevention making loud noises as you hike along? 

[wspscott]

34 minutes ago, Rocket said:

Let me first say that I really love all animals and nature. Except snakes.

Also just wanted to point out in the video the bang from the gun was enough to change the bears mind proving you don't necessarily have to kill it to resolve the situation. Is a good method of prevention making loud noises as you hike along? 

Totally agree about snakes

Every experience I have had with black bears in the Smokies, in KY and in NJ, the bears usually run before you even see them, meaning you see them, but they are already moving away from you. The bear that stood up was surprised by me (didn't hear me coming, it was drizzling) and stood up to figure out what I was. I clapped my hands and yelled at him and he realized he wasn't interested and headed down the hill.

A couple summers ago I was on the AT in NJ and the bears were up in trees eating (nuts I think) and they did not care about me at all. There were 3 or 4 about 200 feet from camp when I woke up and a little bit later, down the trail, there was a mama in one tree and three cubs in another tree. The cubs made me a little nervous, because moms get freaked out, but she must have thought they were safe in the tree because she just kept eating and I headed down the trail.

Make noise, let them know you are "good eatin" and they run in the other direction, sometimes it is even comical how fast they move away from you.

Here's a pic of the cubs

Coincidentally, I just saw this video mentioned on backpackinglight

[Rocket]

2 hours ago, wspscott said:

otally agree about snakes

Every experience I have had with black bears in the Smokies, in KY and in NJ, the bears usually run before you even see them, meaning you see them, but they are already moving away from you. The bear that stood up was surprised by me (didn't hear me coming, it was drizzling) and stood up to figure out what I was. I clapped my hands and yelled at him and he realized he wasn't interested and headed down the hill.

A couple summers ago I was on the AT in NJ and the bears were up in trees eating (nuts I think) and they did not care about me at all. There were 3 or 4 about 200 feet from camp when I woke up and a little bit later, down the trail, there was a mama in one tree and three cubs in another tree. The cubs made me a little nervous, because moms get freaked out, but she must have thought they were safe in the tree because she just kept eating and I headed down the trail.

Make noise, let them know you are "good eatin" and they run in the other direction, sometimes it is even comical how fast they move away from you.

Here's a pic of the cubs

Coincidentally, I just saw this video mentioned on backpackinglight

Cool. Do you know roughly where the bear video is mentioned in the video you posted?

[wspscott]

6 hours ago, Rocket said:

Cool. Do you know roughly where the bear video is mentioned in the video you posted?

I don't understand the question. The youtube video I mentioned is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PExlT-5VU-Y

[lonerock]

Great video wspscott !

A great factual approach to safety in bear country. It finally dispels some of the myths about having a gun for protection.  Obviously much better with bear spray based on the statistics given by Dr. Smith. A lot of fascinating information that I  wasn"t aware of. This video is a must see for anyone hiking or backpacking in bear country.

Thanks again for finding it and giving us the opportunity to watch this important video. It may save someone's life .

[Absarokanaut]

On February 23, 2016 at 11:26 PM, Aconcagua said:

A solid head shot with something along the lines of a 10mm, .41 magnum or .44 magnum would drop a bear -- even a grizzly dead in its tracks.  Actually it would make another 18" or so of forward movement.

Disrupting the animal's central nervous system -- turning off its brain will stop it immediately.

That's not an easy shot given the adrenaline level and the moving target, but it's certainly not impossible.  Not even close.

Grizzlies and their polar bear cousins are dramatically different from blackies when it comes to anatomy/physiology. They have skulls INCHES thick and several roam in the Absaroka with multiple bullet wounds on, not in, their heads. When a grizzly is down on all fours charging you with a conventional firearm and round you have two targets the size of dimes bobbing up and down at +/- 30 MPH. Anyone who knows anything about bears knows that the minimum round you should have for grizzlies is the 451 casull and even then must be incredibly if not impossibly well placed.

I have not regularly carried a gun in the backcountry since I was an ignorant horsepacking kid more than 30 years ago. If I am packing out elk I'll take a shotgun on and near the ranch family of mine owns because it actually has stopping power at close range. I have however carried bearspray going on 17 years. I carried it for 13 years before I needed it when a large boar charged me in the Dunoir Special Management area of the SW Absaroka Range in July 2012. The angry monster was being crowded by other grizzlies displaced by the smoke of a nearby fire in the Teton Wilderness. He finally rolled up 6' in front of me and ran away after grinding his head into the ground for 3 strides. I know bearspray is no 100% guarantee either, particularly when it comes to sows with cubs, but it is unequivocally the sane choice for anyone that doesn't want to have to holster a gun weighing a minimum of more than 3 pounds with nothing in the chamber. Don't take my word for it, google Alaska F&G's statistically sound study demonstrating bearspray to invariably being a better choice than all but the heaviest of firearms. 

Hike your own hike but remember that anyone that belittles bearspary is in my opinion an ignoramus to put it as kindly as possible.

Peace,

John. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Moderator